: Doctor Efraín Cepeda, welcome to El Debate, from week. You have just left the Asobancaria Convention, in Cartagena, a fairly strong speech, among other things, where it calls for respect and defense of institutionality. How did, Doctor Cepeda?
Efraín Cepeda (EC): Well, the truth is that I felt very good that throughout my intervention not only several applause, but in the end I also received a standing applause from many of the attendees.
Well, what I said were truths of what is happening in the country, truths in the way it is intended to govern and that I believe that this issue of popular consultation is more smoke curtains to hide poor management. I believe that today Colombians of what are pending is, where is the money of subsidies?, For example, of social interest housing, right?
Subsidies in ICETEX interests have already disappeared, since education issues, health issues, where is the money for the UPC (Capitation Payment Unit) of health? as ordered by the Constitutional Court.
Meanwhile, the entire health system is deteriorated and destroyed. We are witnessing how even systems worked very well in the country. For example, resources are not turning to public universities. We are in an important crisis, I believe that a crisis caused, to support that they are institutions that do not work well.
They do not work well in this government, where resources are cut. The social interest housing, for example, had been working perfectly well, Colombians accessed and suddenly because subsidies disappeared. In addition, I mean that it is the people who pay the duck, as they say colloquially, because that social interest housing is for the precisely popular classes.
See the interview with Efraín Cepeda, president of Congress:
: How do you feel? They have not lowered the attacks against the figure of the president of Congress, against you directly, President Gustavo Petro continues to attack him, from the same Congress they continue to attack him as a person who goes against the interests of the people.
EC: I feel very good because I am defending the independence of a branch of public power.
These attacks come, not only from the president, but from his congressmen because who does not kneel to the executive’s mandates, because he is immediately an opponent, contradictor, and so on.
When they have never made efforts to arrange reforms, but to impose, so that while I am from Congress, I have to defend their autonomy as one of the three branches of public power, absolutely independent.
I have asked the Senate of the Republic to be deliberative, to make their own decisions and I am a vote, so that they are seeing ghosts, but I think there are majorities that defend the social state of law and the division of public powers.
It is that to think that the legislative is an appendix of the Executive is to dream, and that is precisely what has happened in the central government: an disrespect for public powers. When the judiciary makes decisions that do not satisfy him, he also receives attacks; Even the State Council accused him of censorship. And when you, the media, develop news that you find adverse, because they also undertake it against the free press. The rest, then, it seems to me that they are dreams of greatness, dreams that there is no division of public authorities, and that will not happen.
: But look at everything that is happening. President Petro even speaks of prison. The congressmen of the historical pact try to create a narrative where you are the bad …
EC: Well, that has really been the actions of the National Government. Establish a fight, between quotes, between good and bad and if you want to fight social class and that is not about.
If we sink the general budget for the first time in history, it was because similar similar ones wanted to impose us, that we approved the impact of a tax reform for 12 billion pesos that had not been discussed and that little was known.
So, we turn out that enemies are the legislative power when the enemy can be within the government itself, when they try to impose absurd issues that threaten the dignity of the Congress of the Republic. And I imagine what would have happened if we had approved 12 billion pesos in the general budget of the Nation of a tax reform that had not been discussed.
: There in Asobancaria, where you were, the Attorney General of the Nation, Gregorio Eljach and looks at what the popular consultation formally refused by the Senate of the Republic. Do you consider it as an institutional support?
EC: It is that the attorney was 12 years Secretary General of the Senate and another 12 years of other commissions, so that he knows the fifth law and that is why his claim that he was denied. Now, the general secretary of the Senate certified that this initiative had not passed.
So, if in the national government there are some type of doubts, we see it transparent, it has to go to the State Council, not threaten and not dream that they will decree a popular consultation over the power of the legislative, above the Judiciary, above the Registry, which will not be able to convene it because the Registry will have to request compliance with the requirements and we send a letter with the certification of the secretary of the secretary. That consultation did not get the votes, that consultation sank.
: Is all this that is happening by President Gustavo Petro to finish his government and cover all criticism, all corruption scandals, lack of governance?
EC: Yes, this has been its style of government, that instead of executing the general budget of the Nation, to solve the problems of the community, what is tried to hold other public authorities for their inability to govern, so that the Colombian people are already clear. How many tapes have President Petro cut?
On just roads there are 55 absolutely paralyzed and was not able to sustain credit subsidies for students in Icetex, it is not able to readjust the UPC when the Constitutional Court determined and it has the health system to pieces. These disabilities he tries to hide them with this type of positions and, in addition, absurd positions threatening with a popular consultation that does not exist, dreaming of that, dreaming does not cost anything, but that sank into the Senate’s plenary and is the certification.
It was recognized by the jury and the State Council had already recognized it, which had all the legality floors the decision made by the Senate plenary, but it is they who must pronounce.
: Do you think that the government will definitely fulfill what it has said for several weeks, that the popular consultation is going because it goes?
EC: He has no chance about this one that sank, no possibility of going for her. I do not see the National Civil Status registrar who, with a certification that the popular consultation sank, will call an electoral process, that is absolutely impossible. There are others presented in the Senate, I must say, that we are going to process this week.
Let’s wait for the results, but this was not only a corpse on May 14, but was buried a week later with the appeal that also refused in the Senate plenary. The Senate, mostly, gave a support to the decision that had already been made.
Just as the Chamber made some decisions, the Senate will take his deliberating, so that here they cannot impose force shirts in any way, nor do we receive orders from the Executive, we are not appendages of the Executive so that those threats that are stored because the Senate will freely deliberate on Monday and Tuesday in front of the issue of labor reform.
: What to say to Colombians? Because lately we have been talking about popular consultation, popular consultation and popular consultation, nothing else is being talked in the country.
EC: We have continued our actions to such an extent that we ultimately have the labor reform, which we have evacuated many projects of parliamentary origin that this week we will meet from Monday to Friday.
We are going to have work surely Monday and Tuesday, but we will continue with projects, but we also have to put the other two popular consultations presented by the National Government, so we have everything a bit, 140 projects in the agenda.
We are going to evacuate first those who are in the fourth debate, some of honors, tributes and because we are going to also give priority this week, once the work is evacuated and once the other two popular consultations that have been presented to us have evacuated.
: President Gustavo Petro answered him again and tells him the following: The constitutional order never allows the free vote of a parliamentarian to decide that the primary constituent, which is his boss. No party president or the president of the Senate, that is, you, have any right to prevent any parliamentarian from voting …
EC: That is what has happened in the Plenary of the Senate. All parliamentarians have already been in the enclosure. We do not have the power to prevent anyone, on the contrary. We encourage, we make calls with the bell, that people are going to vote and the one who is not and does not want to vote, because forcing it we cannot, but no one has restricted their right to vote. There have been free votes.
He who won, won and the one who lost, lost. It happens that he took a defeat that he never calculated that it was going to happen and then he is looking for justifications. Every parliamentarian who wanted to vote, there is a computer, the spicha and vote freely. No one is constrained, on the contrary, he is invited to vote.
: Every time one listens to spokesmen of the Government, of the Ministry, they insist that there was a trap there and they point it to you as the person in charge …
EC: Well, the notary is the general secretary of the Senate, who is the one who counts the votes and the one who attests to how the vote was. What happens is that they are bad losers, it was an absolutely clean, valid, guaranteed result and that was the result, what happens is that we defeated them and that hurts a lot to the national government.
: When going to international organizations, what is expected?
EC: It surprises me when he has been the pioneer and has come to international organizations.
It is good when he goes, but it is bad when we attend other parliamentarians and, for now, he went to the UN Human Rights Commission making a story of all the attacks we have received with his intention of generating a break between the public powers.
: Many people ask, why that fight of President Gustavo Petro with Efraín Cepeda, is it personal?
EC: Because we have stopped firm defending the institution. Because we have not kneeling, because we have defended the independence of the Congress of the Republic, that we are not appendages of the Executive and it seems that it is their actions and thinks that the public powers must be folded and while I am, that will not happen.
When we talk now about the general budget of the Nation with the Tax, because it is the only time I have interviewed him since I am president, and I warned it. I told him to process the budget, which we then processed the tax and then the additional budget.
I do not know if Minister Christ (former Minister Juan Fernando Cristo) advised him and they wanted to force the economic commissions to vote 12 billion pesos, taxing Colombians without having discussed it and there are the results, first time in the history of Colombia that a general budget of the nation sinks.
